Lieber Besucher, herzlich willkommen bei: RCLine Forum. Falls dies Ihr erster Besuch auf dieser Seite ist, lesen Sie sich bitte die Hilfe durch. Dort wird Ihnen die Bedienung dieser Seite näher erläutert. Darüber hinaus sollten Sie sich registrieren, um alle Funktionen dieser Seite nutzen zu können. Benutzen Sie das Registrierungsformular, um sich zu registrieren oder informieren Sie sich ausführlich über den Registrierungsvorgang. Falls Sie sich bereits zu einem früheren Zeitpunkt registriert haben, können Sie sich hier anmelden.

1

Sonntag, 14. Mai 2017, 10:07

3d Gedruckter Elektroflugmotor

Hi,
in rc groups hat Skylar einen Tread gestartet der einen aus 3d gedruckten Bauteilen bestehenden Flugmotor zeigt der durch das Hallbach Magnetsystem keine Eisenbauteile für den Stator benötigt. Hier der link zum rc groups Tread , https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthre…or#post37514946
und der link direkt zur Motorerstellung , http://www.instructables.com/id/600-Watt…ushless-DC-Ele/

2005 hat Dieter Würtenberger hier oder in rc-network genau so einen Motor durchkonstruiert und die angehängte Zeichnung mit eingestellt.

Da so eine Maschine für hohe Drehzahlen sehr geeignet ist kann man sich noch um den Rotor eine CFK Bandage wickeln die die Fliehkräfte aufnimmt.

Happy Amps Christian
»ChX« hat folgendes Bild angehängt:
  • 2013-10-21 19.55.32.gif

Cohesive

RCLine User

Wohnort: Research Triangle Park

Beruf: Daimler Robot Tech

  • Nachricht senden

2

Montag, 15. Mai 2017, 22:09

Its a beautiful project but with efficiency of only 80% why take it on when there are off the shelf motors with higher efficiency ? What is the gain for the work involved? Not knocking the design just wondering in the magnetic PLA materials how efficient it can actually be. If the mPLA is really good why wouldn't you see more stators made from it?
IEEE member 93895120
My Gallery


AND NO I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (16. Mai 2017, 02:13)


3

Dienstag, 16. Mai 2017, 09:01

Hi,
i have no data of the magnetic pla but will look for. With such motordesign you can reach highest efficancy like the the two pole flywheel motor from Dr.Richard Post that has peek eff. of 99,6% . But you need a lot of know how to design it right. This designs are good for high frequenz operation. The flywheel spins in the 60-80000 rpm range .But litzwire and big magnetsystem moving around are the minimum and cfk outside to hold every thing in place. Do you not have the patent description ?

Happy Amps Christian

Cohesive

RCLine User

Wohnort: Research Triangle Park

Beruf: Daimler Robot Tech

  • Nachricht senden

4

Dienstag, 16. Mai 2017, 22:19

Hi,
i have no data of the magnetic pla but will look for. With such motordesign you can reach highest efficancy like the the two pole flywheel motor from Dr.Richard Post that has peek eff. of 99,6% . But you need a lot of know how to design it right. This designs are good for high frequenz operation. The flywheel spins in the 60-80000 rpm range .But litzwire and big magnetsystem moving around are the minimum and cfk outside to hold every thing in place. Do you not have the patent description ?

Happy Amps Christian


No I do not have a patent description of this particular 3d printed motor linked from Skylar at rc groups that shows an efficiency of 80%. I guess you're speaking of an optimal halbach design not the 600 watt 3d printed example.
IEEE member 93895120
My Gallery


AND NO I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (16. Mai 2017, 23:09)


5

Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2017, 06:27

Hi,
here is the page showing efficancy , https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicat…OC&locale=de_EP

and here the first page, https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicat…OC&locale=de_EP , you read page by page and see the mosaik showing how to of the magnetsystem .

Happy Amps Christian

Cohesive

RCLine User

Wohnort: Research Triangle Park

Beruf: Daimler Robot Tech

  • Nachricht senden

6

Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2017, 21:44

If I read the patent correctly it states that no back iron or laminations are necessary so the only loss would be seen in the windings. Based on this I have to ask of the 3d printed motor shown what is the purpose of the mPLA stator in the first place?
IEEE member 93895120
My Gallery


AND NO I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (17. Mai 2017, 21:59)


7

Montag, 22. Mai 2017, 18:21

Hy,

just a beginner concerning e-motor based flying, I understand this first posting / theme as the presentation of a new project.

Even as you are right, Cohesive, that 80% effiency yet is not the top of the roof, what better effiency percentage we are talking about? Concerning the difference, it seems to be no hughe one. Nevertheless its correct.

I'm a bit critical too, looking for phenomenous results in a rather new project - more for a test, whether something may work. So far, it might be developable? But to be honest, I'm not familiar enough with that theme, to judge, whether it will be, or not. If only part of the story may be true and close to reality, it offers hope. To reduce weight of a BL keeping, lets say approximately 90% of its power theoretically possible and more than 20-30% of weight loss, is well done, due to my opinion. Cause the LiPo is weight balance enough to reach the POG and longitudinal balance of the model. At this moment surely not more than an option, to be developed once, never knowing whether or not, never knowing when and how good? Einstein also didn't get the nobel price within a few weeks or months, take this into account, please.

Could anyone please explain within a few words, what the hell may lead to a BL that never needs a stator made of iron? If this really may be possible, what amount of weight loss do we talk about (percentage)? Is it ever possible what I stated before?

Kind regards,
Gruß, Jockel

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Tünnbüddel« (22. Mai 2017, 18:46)


Cohesive

RCLine User

Wohnort: Research Triangle Park

Beruf: Daimler Robot Tech

  • Nachricht senden

8

Montag, 22. Mai 2017, 23:23

From my limited understanding A highly efficient(>90) halbach design doesn't need back iron or laminations but I don't think all that much of weight savings seen there because of all the additional magnets needed in a halbach array. I would also think a 10-15 percent increase in efficiency fairly significant.
IEEE member 93895120
My Gallery


AND NO I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (22. Mai 2017, 23:37)


9

Dienstag, 23. Mai 2017, 06:17

Hi,
here is an other best of example , the every year winner of the solar challange in Australia . Most of the solar cars used this type of motor , a iron free type . Here for best results and best to build in ,it is a inwheel motor design with double Halbach array . Note the datas on the pdf .
http://www.ata.org.au/wp-content/uploads…iency_motor.pdf .

The motor was designed by Csiro Australia and show highest efficancy and very high torque to waight numbers .But this is not a 3 d printet motor ,this has a lot of carbon fiber to hold all the force as the magnets looking face to face with lots of love.

Happy Amps Christian

haschenk

RCLine User

Beruf: Dipl. Ing.

  • Nachricht senden

10

Dienstag, 23. Mai 2017, 06:26

Hallo Christian,

deine Links funktionieren bei mir nicht.
Würdest du bitte einfach die Patent-Nummer angeben, damit ich selbst suchen kann ?

Mit einem Flugmotor verbinde ich die Vorstellung, daß die Leistung zu einem möglichst hohen Anteil aus dem Drehmoment kommen muß. Wie geht das ohne "Eisen" ?
Da kann es leicht passieren, daß man im Prop-Wirkungsgrad wieder verliert, was man im Motor-Wirkungsgrad gewonnen hat.

Und noch eine Frage:
Ist über den Siemens-E-Flug-Motor irgendwo mehr bekannt, als in den doch recht allgemeinen Siemens-Infos (z.B. hier: http://www.siemens.com/press/de/feature/…tor.php?content[]=Corp )


Gruß,
Helmut

11

Dienstag, 23. Mai 2017, 06:44

Hallo Helmut,

schnell mal zum Siemens Flugmotor. Ich habe eine pdf ,die ich dir zusenden kann . Der Motor hat alles was ich schon immer propagiere und was wir bei Magnet Motor genau so seit Jahren machen.Er hat Cobalt Eisenbleche für maximale Magnetischen Fluß . Er hat ein Halbach Magnetsystem für maximalen Magnetischen Fluß und er hat direkt durch eine Kühlflüssigkeit gekühlte Spulen ,direkt Draht Flüssigkühlung und sein Magnetkreis ist für all diese Materialien berechnet . Es wird bei Airbus auch neue Elektroflugmotoren geben ,mehr bei Zeit.
Die Patentnummern schreib ich nachher raus.

Happy Amps Christian

Cohesive

RCLine User

Wohnort: Research Triangle Park

Beruf: Daimler Robot Tech

  • Nachricht senden

12

Dienstag, 23. Mai 2017, 07:44

Hi,
here is an other best of example , the every year winner of the solar challange in Australia . Most of the solar cars used this type of motor , a iron free type . Here for best results and best to build in ,it is a inwheel motor design with double Halbach array . Note the datas on the pdf .
http://www.ata.org.au/wp-content/uploads…iency_motor.pdf .

The motor was designed by Csiro Australia and show highest efficancy and very high torque to waight numbers .But this is not a 3 d printet motor ,this has a lot of carbon fiber to hold all the force as the magnets looking face to face with lots of love.

Happy Amps Christian


Christian,
I'm amazed by the weight comparison and output of the halbach in this highly specialized design. What material is the stators made from? What material is used to hold the coils in place? Is this some type of toroidal winding?
40 hours winding ,highly specialized Litz wire and a lot of magnets. Wouldn't this be costly to build even on a small scale like would be seen in modeling?
IEEE member 93895120
My Gallery


AND NO I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!

13

Dienstag, 23. Mai 2017, 11:25

Hi Helmut,

die Patentnummer ist.: US 5705902 (A) 1998-01-06 ,ist das selbe Patent in beiden links nur einmal zur Seite mit den Wirkungsgraden im Schwungmassenspeicher.

@Hugh,

not easy to do as you need very acurate tools to get the Statorcoilplate with the strands right placed and twisted to get very low free runing current.All wire have the same lengh. It's a challange but can be done and no need of the disce type design . The disce design is best to fit inside the small frontwheel of the solar cars . It is allso possible to design a in- and outrunner motor . There are some basic motors out like the Kontronik Tango that has the prefabricated coil but only square magnets . Change the inside and outside magnetsystem to Halbach and use Carbonparts and see what the motor reach data. There is a cheap version available in China , maybee a good source to get started.

Happy Amps Christian

14

Dienstag, 23. Mai 2017, 19:51

Hi,

let me please repeat very shortly: for me as a beginner with e-motorized air models, at the moment I have more questions than anything else. Thank you very much, Cohesive, for your answers and interesting link - all others too, so far.

If I correctly understand what's described in the article about the new kind of race car e-motors from Australia, they talk about a 97% Nm, meanwhile a normal e-motor offers only 82%. If that's wright, I think it's rediculous. On the other hand I understood experts like Helmut and further people who are well informed like Chx, that Nm is in focus of them (Helmut) meanwhile Chx for example pointed out, that the weight loss aspect is rather interesting as well as the usage of materials and further aspects that should lead to more efficiency. Correct, or did I misunderstood what they stated? At the moment I'm a bit confused, cause I'm sure that Cohesive also is an expert for example e-motors.

Due to my small experience with e-motors my impression was, that everything of modern materials and concepts, that may lead to less weight, more or even approximately the same power (Nm) at the propeller must lead to a more interesting e-motor than what we know and have commonly at the moment? Even if the effort is much to high for progress like this, costs are absolutely huge, it will be a more theoretical effect, just an idea, no reality based concept. I don't think that everybody will be interested in such things driven by an interest for model air planes, but by an interest based on real cars for example. The interest concerning what Tesla is doing, the actually gap the European and especially German market offers these days may lead to such a feeling? May be, I suppose. For me it is fact, that e-motorized real cars will be the future, not gasoline powered ones. Their time is nearly gone, over.

I'm very interested, but sure, not for myself (I'm an elderly person), but future generations. It's thrilling, because first time in automobile history we have the chance, to be more "clean".

Kind regards,
Gruß, Jockel

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Tünnbüddel« (23. Mai 2017, 20:03)


Cohesive

RCLine User

Wohnort: Research Triangle Park

Beruf: Daimler Robot Tech

  • Nachricht senden

15

Dienstag, 23. Mai 2017, 23:05

It's funny you bring up autos. The data shared here is only comparing to conventional induction motors. There are others in the automobile industry using fundamentals from Dieter Gerling that shown specially wound induction motors with efficiencies >90% which also take weight into consideration, but in that industry cost, and efficiency will certainly be as relative as it would amongst hobbyist. As merely a student of e-motors what I wonder is at what power the 2 shown motors from Christians link actually work in the vehicle at because the efficiencies are shown at 1.8kw but the continuous and peak powers are much higher. Is 1.8KW where they primarily work at in the vehicles or just as the induction motors inherently the work number figure representative of a partial load.

http://tmi.yokogawa.com/files/content/Wi…application.pdf
http://emadrlc.blogspot.com/2014/07/opti…or-designs.html
IEEE member 93895120
My Gallery


AND NO I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (23. Mai 2017, 23:22)


Cohesive

RCLine User

Wohnort: Research Triangle Park

Beruf: Daimler Robot Tech

  • Nachricht senden

16

Mittwoch, 24. Mai 2017, 02:46

And here is a very recent workshop on feasible airplane e drives with optimizations goals that may be easier to scale down and possibly more practical for a skilled hobbyist to produce and use in his or her model.
https://www.unibw.de/rz/dokumente/getFIL…9213475&fd=kein

And other single tooth winding schemes and motor topologies that show good efficiency numbers than the conventional ideas compared to.
https://www.unibw.de/rz/dokumente/getFIL…9409024&fd=kein


@ Chx
I notice the Halbach shown show a somewhat distributed winding scheme and in reading the patent it says the majority of such a machines losses will be seen in the windings. The tango you mentioned is also a type of distributed scheme no? Is there some type of concentrated winding scheme possible with the Halbach array?
IEEE member 93895120
My Gallery


AND NO I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (24. Mai 2017, 05:13)


17

Mittwoch, 24. Mai 2017, 07:03

Hi,
yes you are right, better with the old 12/10 and 14 system .
For your question , yes there is a singeltooth wind that can be used. This are three coils side by side . They are easy to made and give ,if you do exact 1/3 one coil side ,1/3 gap in the middle,center of the coil and 1/3 for the other coils side a clear sinus wave induction volt.

Happy Amps Christian
»ChX« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • inrunner1.jpg
  • IMG_1995.JPG

Cohesive

RCLine User

Wohnort: Research Triangle Park

Beruf: Daimler Robot Tech

  • Nachricht senden

18

Mittwoch, 24. Mai 2017, 23:17

Great post Christian,

What I conceptualize for a very doable improvement in the outrunners is to do the 14 pole 12 tooth single layer configuration. Have the section laminations laser cut then have the flux barriers 3d printed. Stack the individual lamination sections then create a fixture that will allow you to glue the barriers between the sections to complete the stator. It seems like printing the barriers in the mPLA would be great for this. From the paper the barriers would need to be around 35% of the overall tooth width. With this test show a 73% decrease in the 1st.harmonic a 19% decrease in the 5th. With an increase in the 7th harmonic of 16%. I would think this would lead to a marked increase in efficiency. The single layer can have a better power density and hold more copper than the dual layers winds most hand winding modelers are aiming for.

I wont dilute this thread with anymore talk about motors not of the halbach topology I just felt since it touches on the use of the 3d printer this might a way the printer could be used to make a better hobby motor based on older more conventional designs.
IEEE member 93895120
My Gallery


AND NO I DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM!

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (24. Mai 2017, 23:34)


19

Montag, 29. Mai 2017, 22:19

Hi,
noch etwas 3d gedrucktes , an other 3 d printer motor , https://youtu.be/JkwLpAAfBVI .
And my version back 2006 for a modelhelicopter direct drive ,very light indoor heli.
Printed by my friend Albert Fruth

Happy Amps Christian
»ChX« hat folgendes Bild angehängt:
  • 2006-05-20 22.47.56.jpg

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »ChX« (29. Mai 2017, 22:42)


20

Dienstag, 30. Mai 2017, 23:00

wie wird der gewickelt? Schaut sehr interessant aus? Sind die STLszu kriegen?
Gruss
Thomas
🖖

Healthy for the mind in spirit. Love it. Lets grill.