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Freitag, 1. Februar 2019, 22:58

Is there a german manufacturer of F3S plane that accomodates a 62-64mm spinner.

Is there a F3S plane manufactured in Germany that takes a 62-64 mm spinner? If there is Id like to build a 24 slot version of this to try in the plane. It will be different as it moves away from sinus or quasi sinus to a true BLDC machine and drive it using space vector control. The magnets would be a wedge spoke style. Has anyone ever seen a spoke type magnet array in an out runners bell? If the design Is done correctly there will be no commutation ripple. Rotors with surface mounted PM's do not give back a true trapezoidal bemf.

The attachments and 2015 information are exclusively the property of Yu Liu, B.S. and Ohio State University.!etd.send_file?…position=inline

BTW since I have the magnoval and correct winding schemes from Gerling. I can purchase and prepare the stators will full bobbins of IEEE genius with no worries about the end turn bulk etc. because the bodies will be made to accommodate big copper ! The non magnetic aluminum center section can be finned and made accommodate cooling channels.
»Gast02021019« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • Spoke rotor geometry.png
  • spoke rotor ripple.png
  • Surface mounted rotor bemf.jpg
  • surface mounted rotor ripple.png

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (1. Februar 2019, 23:03)


Freitag, 1. Februar 2019, 23:53

I Imagine something developes from this general idea.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (2. Februar 2019, 00:06)


Montag, 4. Februar 2019, 12:49

you know that our motors used magnetwedges between the magnets to sample flux for tangential magnetic magnetes. You know the pictures.

Happy Amps Christian
»ChX« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • B94C7794-B1F3-4B9B-9D2A-49232B7F970B.jpeg
  • ED2FCFDC-18B7-471A-8D01-EFBB387D2990.jpeg


Montag, 4. Februar 2019, 15:09

Thats nice. You know we will start a production line of electric busses. The "Jouley" as it was named will start production in the next 2 years. If I'm on the project maybe your past experiences will be helpful. Thanks for sharing. And again when you provide one of the stacks of open slots I will work with it. I sent you it and....well you know the rest. Can't do anything with it till I have it. A photo I cannot spend it so I wait. In the meantime I'm enjoying working with what's available to everyone. For me that's more enjoyable than conversing with a lynch mob that would call great drawings cartoons, and a better use of my time. These special motors that are not attainable and all the drama I see associated with them, I cannot attest to.

That's see I can't get any useful feedback on the real topic here which is the true bldc machine.


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 5 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (4. Februar 2019, 16:12)


Montag, 4. Februar 2019, 18:25

The high temperature epoxy arrived.


Montag, 4. Februar 2019, 20:57

and what ? you have all the know how and you can finish some of your projects , first .The slot wedgees are not my thing , i do not need them , they are not helpfull for a higher , moore powerdenser motor. You know i do iron free motors currently with flux samling systems and flux addition that have the same torque density like the best iron , slot coil motor designs but higher efficancy. So have time and finish the Neu motor and after we can start the newer designs. I will do next week some test with pyrolitic graphite in strong , higher switching magnetic flux.After this mesuring i will,think about to place this plates in the fluxbarrier as it has the ability of dia magnetism , it repels magnetic flux and the fluxbarrier can by much smaller and as pyro graphite has much higher termal conductivity the plates can suck heat from inside the motor to a well cooled heatexchanger , good with air , better with liquide . So a lot to do and a lot of information to set right.

Happy Amps Christian


Montag, 4. Februar 2019, 22:16

and.... No I have not seen any ironless engine that you speak of. You haven't shown it so I haven't a clue. Everything you say is great to know and I look forward to it but the spoke magnet type rotor which is more of my main point of interest here really hasn't anything to do with wedges but the truly trapezoidal bemf and SVC. That can improve torque density. I can appreciate the fact that wedges aren't your thing but understand some the things I want to do have not been tested so I want to do so for my own bank. I appreciate high power density but I still want to attenuate the noise. This is one possible way. If I don't improve the density that is fine it has good density already. If I lower the iron and pm loss that is fine too. The problem with solo privateers @ 1,800 dollar prototypes is it make more sense for me to spend that on motor making tooling than just those plates at this point so that is the choice I take. The SPS stator would be around 300.00 that's not bad so I wait for the revision to the slot. The flux barrier stator will come but It make sense to have the tooling in place to build the beautiful copies. Unless I receive dynamite plates that's my options. The other thing is I have a high level of interest in the ultrasonic motors so I'm fairly sure I will dive deeply into them for my own pleasure. Whatever you think you will throw at me I will be ready with all the necessary tooling for beautiful machines so get to work hermano but I'll be working with these things already proposed, easily doable, no one has yet until then. Seems to me the only way Ill see any of it in my hand. Building a better motor and drive system of readily available parts is possible today if you select the right parts and employment. I don't have to have 1800 plates for improvement over what's currently out there or in my own box. Plus all engineers I'm sure with interest in rotating machines, would not reject more research work done with wedges and especially Ferro fluid ones. Sorry if you have no interest in that experimentation or any more with Magnoval but It's highly interesting for me.

Ill probably end up doing a lot of things you may have and done better but what you've done doesn't line my motor box or feed my lust for learning

Buying the tooling and working with making something better that anyone can will be more useful as whole than one prototype no one can use. Based on what I want to do this is going to be the best route to take. That way I depend on no one for anything and assure all my dreams, ideas, and goal, are realized and not just some shit posted off a keyboard on a forum. Whatever I do I will always post some numbers and specific information on how I did it so that someone can use it or make sense of it. It's okay if you don't like my NEUMOTOR :)

It will teach me something I can actually attest to myself as validation of something I tried. No one else can do that for me but me and no one will have to take my word for it it will be before their eyes to draw their own conclusions from. This is MY way and these test may go on for years so don't mind what I do to much. A lot of years ahead and much more education too. The 24 slot stators are 79.00 each so I can wind them in a way which will attenuate the harmonics. If I can additionally wedge without detriment and attenuate even more noise we are going to do that. Its an easier cheaper option than special pms from Arnold Magnetic an it reduces the pm and iron losses significantly. It can be done without major detriment to torque output but it improves efficiency. There are other things that improve efficiency that don't necessarily improve torque output. This motor has a fairly high wind factor with a low resistance to draw large amps so I'm not truly concerned about its power density. It would serve it's intended purpose off the shelf. We try to take every option we can get to make the motor better every efficiency point counts. Then we build rotors of our dreams with all the pm proposals and test those. We learn a lot this way and stamp only one name and time card on the work win lose or draw. That way free rivers can ramble on till their hearts desire and I can stay on task because I got a lot of shit to do. And for me it will require some focus. Thermal compound impregnation, Axial cooling, Compressed gas cooling, Gerling windings, SPS stators, FB stators, Iscad....Im going to do it all before the viewers then be myself done with the clown ass circus that takes place on forums for years with no real answers or shown work.

And still does anyone make the plane? :)

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 13 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (5. Februar 2019, 04:17)


Dienstag, 5. Februar 2019, 01:22

I do agree there is some information to set right about what I'm doing here. Let me make an attempt. It comes from fully documented testing in 2013. D.Vinnikov an IEEE senior from Tallinn, Estonia and 3 other highly accomplished EE's P.M. Lindh, J.J. Pyrhönen, and P. Ponomarev from the EE department at Lappeenranta University of Technology , Lappeenranta , Finland have found through well detailed testing methods that 'tooth-coil" wound traction motors benefit from using low μ slot wedge material. The wedges decreased the iron and pm losses significantly. Especially at the rated speed. It was found up to 30μ to have positive benefit but at that point it became disadvantageous from the fact it considerably reduced the maximum torque. The thickness of the wedge material has a big influence on the performance and the efficiency of the machine. Thicker wedges make smoother distributions of the stator created flux in the air gap which decreases rotor losses but it also increases the leakage flux which increases the leakage inductance. That's what decreases the pull out torque. It's Inversely proportional to those inductances. Shown here:

Do you see the chart here that shows the torque as a function of the slots wedges μ? Also with less loss is a cooler running engine and that has to give some additional benefit to the overall operation. less for me to cool as well and maybe save weight in a lighter cooling system. With cooling I'm going to make more power and torque no matter if the wedges are there are not. They clean up the power and Id rather have less clean power than more dirty.Now you know F22 NiZn μ relative is less than 30 it's 22 and this proprietary blend is diluted to only what I know and the wedge is very thin. The permeability of the material decreases in a flux weakening situation or as the speed increases so some predictive insight and unrestricted thinking is needed. I know what I'm doing and why. Do you see the boost and extension of efficiency across the speed range shown here? Have you actually looked at or read the information?
In doing so you might have noted that the mu number of silicon steel would make it a terrible wedge material. far far away from a mm thick wedge of dilute NiZn.


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 14 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (5. Februar 2019, 03:59)


Dienstag, 5. Februar 2019, 01:30

And then the Ferro fluid brings a whole new set of questions. I doubt any were answered 30 years ago. So the challenges and excitement of testing new old things brings benefit to us all. The EMG707 ferro fluids μ relative is 2.09 so you can predict that its torque output will not be too adversely affected based on the chart. You can also predict that the iron a pm losses will be good at the μ level. It should be quite effective and maybe the wedges can have coolant channels that allow un curried cool fluid to passively circulate around the wedges. Ill add a cartoon :-)(-:

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (5. Februar 2019, 02:45)


Dienstag, 5. Februar 2019, 05:37

If it was an absorption material it might not reflect leakage back on the stator but the absorption would raise the heat. Thin foil or copper may work well too as a low Mu reflector.


Dienstag, 5. Februar 2019, 09:20

Sometimes we get in the habit of just talking about what can or might work versus seeing or showing what does. It is not my nature to sit on a forum and speculate all day with people that do that.It is boring.I have to do something if I'm alive and so I am. I have the right glue. I have the carbonyl powder. I have the iron oxide. I have the gfk. I have the microballoons. I await the magnoval 2232 2.9 mu relative and will select a ferrofluid. I can make my own material right now. I have many of the DSP processors and fets here. Im versed in sound reinforcement, I'm versed in electronics. So why in God's good name and blessings would I ever consider sitting somewhere arguing all day, with people that have nothing better to do, if something will work or not, simply because we haven't sat down and shared a Lager yet? I don't mean you or anyone specifically, but you know I don't have time. That said, if you or anyone can speak creative languages, lets talk.

If I consider,non magnetic metals, semi magnetics,composites,and soft magnetic materials the creative world has a lot of applicable possibilities with manipulating them in such a way as to tune a motor for a higher broader efficiency band thru a specific speed range and still make good torque. What if I could instantly add or take away the slot shield with ferrofluid and perhaps inject at higher speeds when the slot harmonic attenuation is really needed. Or add iron particle concentration at my will? Have you honestly considered all the possibilities with different blend of materials? Where they could be located in the slot? Have you lost your mind hanging out in the wrong place? ;) I don't see any reason since your best inrunner is potted why you cant run sealed bearings fill the case with an oil based ferrofluid and run test. You can also run your outrunner stator gfk water shield as a slot wedge on the outrunner and half of the sealed cavity for injecting the ferro fluid directly into the gap.The rotor for the inrunner nonetheless is perfect in my mind. Is it too radical to try?


Dienstag, 5. Februar 2019, 09:46

Think about it Christian. If I line thin foil (mu is 1) with an absorber material (mu is 1) at the slot opening it's only going to to absorb the high frequencies because the fundamental and working harmonics at the lower orders and higher magnitudes 1/4 λ is too long. Do you think its significant contribution to torque in those higher orders? If there is why do we employ low pass filters to attenuate high order harmonics on a larger scale? Lets talk and get the information straight.Because I also think you could deaden the stators resonance simply by wrapping a piece of sound deadening material inside the bearing tube between the bearings. The NEU on the other hand has recesses in the carrier so i can line axially the stator with sound deadening material. It rings just like a tuning fork if you tap it with your nail. That's no good.


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (6. Februar 2019, 00:20)


Mittwoch, 6. Februar 2019, 00:15

There are several metal wedge materials that observe the right characteristics. The entire 300 series of Austenitic stainless will work. Hyperm 36% ni, and the entire non orient Sura series. Permendur 24 24% cobalt looks like a good choice as well. You aslo have brass aluminum and alloys from them with some including nickel. Grain oriented silicon steels relative μ levels are from 58-93 so you can see where that will leave the torque output. Previously I provided an extensive list of materials and their respective μ numbers. It is very easy to view for anyone that interested and chooses to do so.


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (6. Februar 2019, 00:47)


Mittwoch, 6. Februar 2019, 03:15

Another consideration is the lab work was performed with open slot machines. You will only know if you actually read the paper. So to continue on my path I received the email from Isovolta today. The magnoval 2232 is on it's way.I also plan to use it in the induction machine. The 2,000 ft. of wire has arrived and Aloys sent me the slot liners so its time to try the Gerling shift for the 7th.harmonic on the induction machine.

The standard concentrated wind for this motor has a ξ of .90191 but this will change with a gerling shift. The wind factor will be less but since the 7th is further away from the fundamental they will be less rotor losses so the torque will be there with a cleaner signal.


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 9 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (6. Februar 2019, 06:07)


Donnerstag, 7. Februar 2019, 00:06

Today I received an email from Alan Chu, a sale engineer a FerroTec (USA) Corporation. He advised APG S10n which is a low viscosity oil based fluid with a μr of 3.9.

That and the Magnoval© both are in a realm where the torque output will still be really good but reduce rotor and pm losses considerably, and possibly steal a few efficiency point with a better THD. A better thd certainly increases the power factor. It lowers the peak currents and raises efficiency. Lower THD is such an important feature in power systems that of course industry has set standards like the IEC 61000-3-2 that sets limits on the the harmonic currents of power equipment. We will test these things and Im sure you will see no major detriment to max torque output.
I just hope to see the "proof" of what others ideas manifest in reality as well.

The copper tubing is here and its thick walled enough that I could simply dip it in the high temp epoxy and wind the motor with it. The cooling is directly inside the conductor now. This annealed copper is very pliable. 2 turns easy with this. Its is 3.17mm od id is 1.69 mm.

Till then....

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (7. Februar 2019, 00:14)


Donnerstag, 7. Februar 2019, 00:14

Hi Flat.
Hows the view?


Freitag, 8. Februar 2019, 04:23

Alan from Ferrotech contacted me and suggested based on it's intended purpose the APG S10N. The mu relative is 5. They will send sample of both. That's incredible because the EG is $7.60 usd per ml and the APG series is $2.10usd per ml. So they gives me $145.00 of Ferro fluid to try. He suggest he will be going to and ebike show with Grin technology which is injecting the fluid in the air gap with excellent result! The addition of ferrofluid in the gap of an outrunner lowered the operational temperature 27 degrees celcius. Grin call it statorage and they ask 10 dollars a ml.a bottle th


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (8. Februar 2019, 10:03)


Dienstag, 12. Februar 2019, 19:33

There is also possibly the use of dc chokes at 5% to reduce the 5th on a 7th working wave motor. I guess the size may be an issue but I would still look at them for motor harmonic suppression. Whos tested this easy implementation?…ite%20paper.pdf
»Gast02021019« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • DC CHOKE.jpg
  • chokes.jpg

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Cohesive« (12. Februar 2019, 19:41)


Samstag, 20. April 2019, 18:12

Wie gut funktioniert das? Die kurze Antwort ist sehr gut, im Schnitt etwa verdoppelt die Wärmeleitfähigkeit von den Kupferwicklungen auf die Außenumgebung. Das entspricht der Verbesserung der Kühlleistung, die durch das Bohren von sehr großen Entlüftungslöchern auf beiden seitlichen Abdeckplatten erreicht wird, jedoch ohne die Expositionsfolgen. Bei niedriger Geschwindigkeit macht Statorade etwas besser, während bei hohen Geschwindigkeiten der aktive Luftstrom eine Kante hat.

In der Grafik auf der linken Seite können Sie sehen, welche Auswirkungen das Hinzufügen von Statorade zum TDCM 5 Speed IGH Nabenmotor in 1mL-Schritten hat. Bis wir auf 6 ml Statorade, um den Motor hinzugefügt, die Wärmeleitfähigkeit von der Kupfer auf die Motorschale hat sich von 1,8 auf 4,3 Watts/Deg erhöht, und die konstante Zustand Motor-Kerntemperatur hat sich von fast 90 ° C auf unter 60 ° C reduziert.

Was bedeutet das in der Praxis? Nun, wenn man die Wärmemenge verdoppeln kann, die ein Motor ableiten kann, bedeutet das (aufgrund der I2R-Beziehung), man kann ihn mit etwa 40% höherem, nachhaltigem Drehmoment und Leistung ohne Überhitzung betreiben. 40%! In der Praxis bedeutet dies, dass Radtouren, die früher Ihren Nabenmotor auf 100+°C gedrückt haben, jetzt nur noch zu ~ 70°C Temperaturen führen. Und wenn der Motor von einem kurzen, intensiven Stromausfall heiß wird, dann ist es so viel schneller, wenn er sich abkühlt und bereit ist für den nächsten Schub mit hoher Leistung.

Natürlich wird sich der Motor mit einem bestimmten Motorregler und einem Batterie-Setup nicht anders anfühlen, wenn man Statorade hinzufügt, von der Linie Drehmoment abhebt und alles wird genau das gleiche sein. Erst wenn Sie die Motortemperaturen überwachen, sehen und schätzen Sie die Wirkung und können Ihr Nutzungsfenster entsprechend erweitern.

Wir haben ein sehr leistungsfähiges ebike-Simulationswerkzeug entwickelt, das alle Daten aus erster Hand aus unseren Windkanalversuchen aufnimmt und einen kompletten Nabenmotor und eine ebike-Umgebung um sie herum modelliert. Sie können dann jede beliebige Reisesimulation für einen Motor direkt mit und ohne Statorade-Zusatz vergleichen und selbst sehen, wie die Kerntemperaturen reduziert werden.

How Much to Use?

Einer der faszinierendsten Aspekte der Statorade ist, wie wenig benötigt wird, um diese thermischen Vorteile zu erreichen. Bei der konventionellen Ölkühlung eines Nabenmotorenmotors würden die Menschen in der Regel mehrere hundert ml ATF-Öl oder ähnliches hinzufügen, um eine gute thermische Verbindung zu erhalten, die zu einem messbaren zusätzlichen Luftwiderstand aus Flüssigkeitsreibung führt. Mit Statorade beginnen wir messbare Verbesserungen bei der Wärmeableitung mit nur 2-3 mL zu sehen, und bei den meisten Nabenmotoren wird die volle Wirkung mit irgendwo zwischen 5-8 mL bei bescheidenen RPMs und 8-12mL für schnelle RPMs erreicht. Wenn mehr Statorade darüber hinaus hinzugefügt wird, dann gibt es fast keine Änderung des Wärmeflusses, aber Sie werden beginnen, immer mehr viskose Flüssigkeits-Drag. In der Grafik unten sehen Sie die Auswirkungen des Hinzufügens der Statorade 1mL auf einem großen 40 mm breiten MXUS-Direktantriebsknabenmotor.

Wenn Sie sich nicht sicher sind, wie hoch der Füllbetrag für Ihre Nabe ist, dann empfehlen wir Ihnen, die Leerlauf-Ziehung Ihres Motors mit Vollgas zu messen und dann die Statorade in kleinen Schritten zu einer Zeit hinzuzufügen, bis Sie eine messbare Erhöhung des entladenen Stroms sehen. Dies ist der Punkt, an dem zusätzliche Statorade wird vor allem Ihren Roll-Drag zu erhöhen, ohne viel thermischen Nutzen.

~Grin Technologies~

Chilled Ferro Fluid continues to looks like a great answer for cooling and improvement of the magnetic circuit.
Lassen Sie mich zunächst kurz daran erinnern, warum wir diese Reise überhaupt begonnen haben. Wir wollten herausfinden, welche tieferen Bedeutungen unsere tägliche Arbeit hat. Gibt es hier in diesen Foren etwas anderes als Sie oder Ihren Neid und die ständige Ablehnung der Fachleute und Experten in den relevanten Studienbereichen?


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Right« (20. April 2019, 18:41)


Montag, 22. April 2019, 05:02

Hi Christian,
To answer your question about Ferro Fluid really isn't needed. Ferrofluid's ability to increase power handling and remove heat from a magnetic air gap, and pole piece has already been proven years ago. The linear motor this was done in is called a loudspeaker.

Justin has done his homework Chris. This was confirmed but Ferrotech Engineer Alan Chu. I have a direct line to him.

Statorade is nothing but rebranded fluid from Ferrotech. The fluids I'm testing have been posted. I'll contact Alan Chu from there and he will tell me the blend that grin is using. The entire cooling write up is on endlessphere. I see those graphs grabbed your attention. Pretty significant increase in thermal conductivity and reduction in motor temperature.

You see the chart about drag as a function of the amount of fluid used. U draw basic forecast based on this. As I find more info I will pass it to you.…095879#p1095879
Pie shaped wedges with 100 percent coverage and no gaps between pm pieces should produce less drag than the result from these test

Heres more about the improvement of TC.

My cooling legacy continues without me.....…ficiency/page12

The Strange American... :rose:
Lassen Sie mich zunächst kurz daran erinnern, warum wir diese Reise überhaupt begonnen haben. Wir wollten herausfinden, welche tieferen Bedeutungen unsere tägliche Arbeit hat. Gibt es hier in diesen Foren etwas anderes als Sie oder Ihren Neid und die ständige Ablehnung der Fachleute und Experten in den relevanten Studienbereichen?


Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 7 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Right« (22. April 2019, 05:34)